Author Topic: Elemental Effects-  (Read 7282 times)

BlueSunshine

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Elemental Effects-
« on: Mar 08, 2013; 08:18 AM »
Hi all

After a few searches I am left none the wiser about many aspects of the elemental effects- Poison/Ignite/Shock/Phase/Stun.

So lets have a thread for anything that is known.

Ok so first of all lets not waste any time ranting about critical hits, that can be covered(excellently) elsewhere. Elemental effects may be of no use/nerfed etc but the question is how do they work?

I will add more when I get time but heres a few to start with-

1- Mob defenses, where do the figures in the wiki come from? Are they accurate and relevant in HGG?

(NO ANSWER YET)

2- Do we have a working formula for the chance to proc?

(YES(Edit- but incomplete)- SEE BELOW)

3-On what timescale does chance to effect operate- Once per "hit" 600rpm v sniper or on a "tic" basis with field attacks?

(SEE BELOW)

4- Do the secondary effects novas/shrapnel etc give chance of elemental effects?

(PROBABLY)

5- On weapons( eg Thor) what does "Chance of shock effect 25%" and "Damage of Poison effect 40%" do? It seems seperate to Attack Strength. Could this be used to enhance other skills cast, like splash on strikes for example?
(SEE BELOW @9)

6- Any way to extend length of effect with +buff/curse/boost etc?

MAYBE- unclear atm but some possibility beacon is treated as curse skill?

7- Does the amount of actual damage alter the chance to cause effect?

(PROBABLY NOT) looks like 1 is as good as 1000.(Edit- Or is this incorrect?)


Any info or links welcome-

Thx

Bluesunshine 8)
« Last Edit: Jan 25, 2014; 09:41 AM by BlueSunshine »
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danker

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BlueSunshine

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Re: Elemental Effects-
« Reply #2 on: Mar 08, 2013; 04:22 PM »
Thx Danker for the link.
A great start and the best info I have seen yet.  When I have time to chew through it all properly I will try to add it here. It confirms my suspicion that sniper rifles may be the best option for Hunters to cause effects and answers many of my points. I hope to create an Elementalist Marksman to test out some of this but would like to gather as much info as possible first. Thx again.

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thegreatcthulhu

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Re: Elemental Effects-
« Reply #3 on: Mar 08, 2013; 09:17 PM »
This probably isn't the answer you were looking for, but I'll say this none the less:

As far as I know, +buff/curse/boost skills only apply to skills themselves.  And the skills they apply to are very specific.  For example, +curse will extend the duration of hamper for the Templar and boost (or maybe it was buff, I cannot remember) extends the duration of Great Defender for the Guardian. 

It's kind of annoying that not all of the skills have their "category" listed in their descriptions.  I think the boost skills do for the Hunters, but I haven't touched an Engineer in very long time.
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Violet-n-Red

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Re: Elemental Effects-
« Reply #4 on: Mar 09, 2013; 12:50 AM »
sniper rifles may be the best option for Hunters

AWWWWWW YEEEAAAHHHHH!!!! 8) 8) 8)

it would be EPIC to see MM successfully using sniper rifle and tactical stance. at least because i thought this is how MMs should be played when i just started to play HG.
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PeeterMcG

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Re: Elemental Effects-
« Reply #5 on: Mar 09, 2013; 02:24 AM »
It's kind of annoying that not all of the skills have their "category" listed in their descriptions. 
Agreed.
Been a sore spot for me since the game first dropped under FSS's banner.
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BlueSunshine

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Re: Elemental Effects-
« Reply #6 on: Mar 10, 2013; 08:48 PM »
Re dankers link to Hellgate Resurrection.de.

"What you always wanted to know about status effects but never dared to ask" by MadScientist.

Looks like the information all came from official FSS Forum extracted from SP version 1.0 .
This may be changed slightly in HGG i guess but the main thrust of it probably is unchanged ( and so far its all we have got).

Basic formula-    Chance to cause effect(p)  =     Attack strength(a) / a+d(defense strength


eg.   Gun hits with poison damage having 800 attack strength against mob with 200 poison defense-

800/800+200 = 0.8    or   80% chance

BUT

secondary modifier now changes that depending on rate of fire; this is typically 1.0 for around 60 shots/min and higher for slower weapons and lower for faster typically 1/shots per second. A table of values is provided, here are some examples-

Fusion Rifle (600rpm?)        0.1    10%
Fireflux                              5      500%
FS Triton SNPR                   2.5   250%
Arashis Spidershot(28rpm)  2.1   210%

so the 80% figure would now @ 600rpm become 8% 

I wont attempt the maths which he then uses to compare the pros and cons of attack speed but suffice it to say he concludes slow is best when it comes to causing Elemental effects.

It also seems likely that the secondary modifier is applied to other skill based attacks but no direct evidence of this.

Still a few areas to investigate- I am particularly curious about the "Chance of shock effect x%" and "Damage of Poison effect x%" adds  on some weapons.

So it looks like a sniper rifle with 8 +attack strength/shield pen mods, max Affliction (+28%AttStr),max Elemental Vision(+150%AttStr) max Elemental Beacon(mob def -100) also considering max Emp Blast as part of support MM build. It seems like only add ignite procs on leg. gear and have seen add shock on some unique- I am not familiar with MM set items do they have any elemental boosts?

Edit- Not sure what effect "number of projectiles" may have. Some weapons fire slowly but with multiple projectiles (up to 7?) this may be the best option but still some way off testing it yet.
« Last Edit: Jun 21, 2013; 08:11 AM by BlueSunshine »
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danker

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Re: Elemental Effects-
« Reply #7 on: Mar 10, 2013; 09:40 PM »
for example http://www.hellgateaus.info/wiki/LYC_Locktights

More i dont have in mind, but i never look for stats like this^^

BlueSunshine

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Re: Elemental Effects-
« Reply #8 on: Mar 11, 2013; 08:08 AM »
Yes LYCs were the ones i was thinking of. Silly me- the wiki- looking there it seems the MM set items are no help but the mini set shoulders can give up to 205 shock/poison attack strength and add damage. Also the belts have a general "increase poison/electricity damage" this seems to match the gun adds which confirms poison and shock both do some damage over time as does ignite(admittedly minimal).

« Last Edit: Mar 11, 2013; 04:15 PM by BlueSunshine »
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BlueSunshine

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Re: Elemental Effects-
« Reply #9 on: Jul 30, 2013; 07:15 AM »
Copy of reply by Harrowing re Elemental Effect Damage

•#1 Poison originating from weapons or skills yes, Each time the poison effect is triggered as long as poison remains active it does 10% base weapon damage.  If you apply poison again from a different source/skill it "resets" the status and resets the poison damage level.

•#2 Poison damage from skills from the same source Stack, i.e. say you poison moloch once with 50 poison damage over 5 seconds (5 damage each second) then you poison him again with the same skill It adds both sources together as long as they both "tick" and apply all of their proper damage.
•#3 When you have the property damage of poison effect it increases the damage applied during poison status by said amount.  E.g. trigger poison from a evoker toxic machine pistol doing 50 damage over 5 seconds.  You also have the property damage of poison effect increased by 100%.  Instead of doing 5 damage each tick you now do 10 damage per tick, this property only increases the damage of the durational portion, not the source damage.  The property from skills like swarm works exactly the same, increase the poison damage for the durational tick.

In all 3 of the above examples all are affected by Internal sources of normal mods/augments such as divine damage and crit damage, External sources are excluded, except for skill based poison sources such as swarm, venom armor, etc.

•#4 Mods/augments that spawn toxic attacks (All mods really such as poison nova on hit, charged bolts on hit, etc) directly have vastly different damage calculations...  Damage is calculated by the differences in item level, monster level, player level, and whether its from another trigger of the item source or not (i.e. if a poison nova triggered another poison nova)


In example #4   These sources are only affected by divine mods.  Everything else from what I can tell is excluded.

On Shock damage.

  It depends on other things such as an attack speed modifier (how much damage was applied during 20 ticks/1 game tick).  Shock damage does 50% of the source damage applied during the time it took for the shock effect to be applied and the next shock damage tick count.  There are some skill based shock effects which get very high sources of damage (Namely Arc legion for e.g.)  Each shock tick happens each 1 game tick (it may be 1~20 ticks away).  Also, Shock damage stacks, differently than poison.  The game includes the previous game's tick shock effect damage in the next shock effect game tick damage.

1.E.g.  #1  IF say you used a level 1 arc legion and proc'ed shock immediately after attacking the target.  During the time shock effect was applied and the the next shock tick counter all damage that is SHOCK based is summed(added up) and then 50% of that damage is applied during the tick.  So day you did 200 total damage during 20 ticks, On the next game tick the shock effect damage portion would be 100 extra damage.
2.E.g. #2 Lets say this time you proc'ed shock with a level 10 arc legion, a 250% skill damage modifier for shock effect damage. Lets say you did 5 shock damage each tick and you applied shock effect for 100 ticks .  This means you've done 5 game ticks of shock effect damage.
1.The first shock effect damage will be (5 * 20) * 0.5 * (250% )= 125 shock damage
2.Second game tick does ((5 * 20) + 125) * 0.5 *(250%) = 281.25 shock damage
3.Third game tick does ((5 *20) + 281.25) * 0.5 * (250% = 476.5625 shock damage
4.Fourth game tick does ((5*20) + 476.5625) * 0.5 * (250%) = 720.703125 shock damage
5.the Final game tick would do ((5*20) + 720.703125) * 0.5 * (250%) = 1025.87890625 shock damage.

^^ Thats why the longer you shock the better it gets,  Also note the same rules for skill/item/mod based shock damage are applied the same way as in the poison examples.  Those big jumps you see in damage during the shock effect after about 6 seconds are the results of my example.

Ignite is the simplest of the all it does 3% total hp damage per game tick, and only the duration can be modified.
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BlueSunshine

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Re: Elemental Effects-
« Reply #10 on: Jan 18, 2014; 11:59 AM »
Update on earlier post:
I am now testing some ideas with Red_Lead(MM with all out attackstrength 2-3000+with boost) regarding elemental effects.
Early results confirm what others have found - bosses are almost immune :).

Could anyone comment on this :-

From an earlier thread- "Basic-Ingame- Machanics(known and unknown facts??)"
By Harrowing
"Third point: it would appear that elemental strengths are now affected by critical damage as well.  1 relic in my off hand was a 3% physical and 48 stun attack strength.  Apparently this relic as the single source of elemental attack strength with only 1 12% elemental attack strength multiplier was enough to force any spectral target which survived a critical hit to have a stun animation that would last for 2-3 seconds.  48 stun attack strength does nothing against level 50 spectrals, However simply if a critical hit occured and the monster didn't die, that stun attack strength was very very high."

So is amount of damage caused related to chance to cause?
If this is the case maybe a combo of slightly cutting critical damage to add elemental attack would be better than all out elemental?
« Last Edit: Jan 18, 2014; 12:50 PM by BlueSunshine »
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danker

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Re: Elemental Effects-
« Reply #11 on: Jan 18, 2014; 01:12 PM »
hmm i would need more details from that test. Most Weapons got some eleAtack (Morax a lot Stun, Glyph some of any eleAtack). In Japan we figured out that eleAtack with 3% eleMods don't work, we needed at least 4% of the specific ele kind. Then would be a need do test with less criticaldmg hit. Maybe there is a kind of eleBreak like AmoreBreak? Could be funny, mybe then eleAtack would be the better cdb to mod in.

Quote
1 relic ..... a stun animation that would last for 2-3 seconds.
Evo normaly dont deal a lot of "Interupt", but that description would be fit to Strikes with Cannos.


Edit: Btw, last year i did test with Stun-Grd (mybe i should write about that) short word about: Useless! I got Wyrmguard with dualStun on it, modet 2xStunmod, got all Skills with +eleAtack max, Affliction max, and so on an ülus eledrain form evo and ele beacom from MM i nearly never gould stun a Boss (just very very random). I have to recompute but it was around 5000 stunatack.... back to topic:  but with not much Crit :)  >:(
« Last Edit: Jan 18, 2014; 01:17 PM by danker »

BlueSunshine

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Re: Elemental Effects-
« Reply #12 on: Jan 25, 2014; 10:12 AM »
Thx again Danker for your input. I was going to try pushing attack strength on a single element even higher but it looks like that will not work.
Red_Lead was testing with Bulls Eye giving Poison 1222/3397(+EleVision/Affliction)Shock 705/1960 Stun 803/2232 Phase 889/2471 Ignite 745/2071 also Thor giving Poison 1097/3000 Shock 1017/2827 Stun 257/714 Phase 610/1696 Ignite 641/1801.

Using the formula- 
Chance to cause effect(p)  =     Attack strength(a) / a+d(defense strength x speed modifier (I assumed 2 for BullsEye and 0.1 for Thor)

and taking Elemental Defence from Wiki (Natan 20000) less 1106 for Elemental Beacon.

By my calculation this should have been enough to trigger effect- at least some of the time. It will light up lesser mobs like a christmas tree but almost never hits on main bosses >:( . Fire rate and level of damage (minimal crit though) dont seem to have any effect.

So where is the problem?
If amount of damage is linked, as Harrowings post implies that may explain it. Are the wiki figures still accurate or do they scale horribly in 5 man teams? Of course it is possible they have so messed up the numbers that it is impossible, even with maximum effort, to achieve.
Any chance you can dig this out from the code material you have?
It would be a great help before I try more blind testing.
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