Author Topic: The BM hate megathread!  (Read 1832 times)

Bryan

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The BM hate megathread!
« on: May 29, 2017; 12:54 AM »
Welcome, welcome :) This is a cozy corner dedicated to bashing the BM Overlords.

Jokes aside, the current state of BMs has been...divisive. Objections to their performance often include SoJ OPness and early-game superiority to other classes, while lines of defense tend to include their being a melee class that requires said DPS. And with class balance slowly but surely coming into the spotlight, it's a discussion that will soon need to reach some concrete results.

So, this thread is dedicated to thoroughly analyzing the class. Merits and shortcomings, comparison to other damage-dealers in early/mid/endgame in terms of DPS and survivability, and so forth.

Lastly, as a personal request, I'd like shrapnel to be left out of the discussion. Not only is it a factor of the game that's under heavy discussion in itself, it's also one that elevates any class to godly levels. It's noteworthy that endgame Gundians and MMs can already kill Moloch in 1-3 seconds with heavy shrapnel use, so I feel that BMs making use of it through SoJ is an issue related to shrapnel itself and not a class-bound one.
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Kikina the templar

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Re: The BM hate megathread!
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2017; 10:47 AM »
"How little men know... About the swords. About the knights. About the Great dark that boils behind all.."
 -Murmur

I personally consider any discussion about the Templars to be unnecessary :-)
Blademasters were in FSS Hellgate and Hellgate global always poor and marksmans overpovered. In TCv4 is the capabilities finnally settled.
In FSS Hellgate could marksman with two Hu's and speed fire skills kill Molly in few second (ofcourse in single player), in TCv4 can blademaster with two Gleamcarvers and triple chop skill do the same.
Additionally, mythic affixes on gear can supply to blademasters so much needed + to damage, which have the hunters like a normal gear common affixes..
In terms of shrapnel - i have not tested them in TCv4, but in FSS Hellgate Have been invented genuinely. With fixed (high) damage allowed to player quick progress in the single player game, While virtually preventing their use in multiplayer, because of increased resistance of monsters reduced their damage.
Recommendation for Hellgate 2038 - fix quick fire for hunters and otherwise leave it unchanged.

 ;)

Bryan

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Re: The BM hate megathread!
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2017; 12:39 PM »
Thanks for your thoughts Kikina :)

Unfortunately shrapnel allows some pretty insane killspeeds as it is. I've literally pulled off 1-second kills, which I believe should never happen.

(Note, I'm practically in melee range to "force" MS to work, as it's currently broken scope-wise.)

BMs are pulling off similar killspeeds with SoJ and shrapnel, albeit a tad slower. Probably closer to 3-6 seconds, depending on procs. Gundians seem to land roughly in the middle of those two. Combined with Anchor I've managed 1-second kills, but not as consistently as with MS MMs.

That's why I wanted to exclude shrapnel from the discussion. It's a very efficient way to make certain builds/classes work, but it massively overshadows many other endgame options. In fact, few options even come close to that.
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Kikina the templar

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Re: The BM hate megathread!
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2017; 03:08 PM »
Nice kill  :)

And now try it, for comparison, again in full group with others players, who of course do not fight.
How it works here, i do not know. But in FSS version you would have an unpleasant surprise..
I know what i'm talking about, i've experienced it myself  :D

Bryan

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Re: The BM hate megathread!
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2017; 03:22 PM »
I do agree that they perform worse in parties, of course. However, (to my knowledge anyway) said party multipliers affect all builds, not just shrapnel. I'd need much more extensive party testing to be fair on which are influenced to what degree, but as far as solo goes it's already fair to say that in most cases they even overshadow min-maxed crit builds.
For instance, this is the exact same MM without shrapnel:


Frankly, my reason for wanting them excluded from the BM discussion is that they're a dubious mechanic in themselves as they are, regardless of how BMs use them.
Which is nothing impressive by comparison, by the way :P For the sake of transparency:
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Nemios

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Re: The BM hate megathread!
« Reply #5 on: Jun 01, 2017; 06:41 PM »
Being a HCE player I shun shrapnel completely, especially on melee. Shrapnel kills instantly with rebounding, boomerang etc, even parties are wiped away instantly. They work on Gundian, yet I don't run with them - yet that is ;-)

We did discuss shrapnel many times in our guild and are going to do some testing on it.

As for the BM.

If I recall correctly STR pre TCV4 didn't give as much increase in dmg or it might be because the feeds are off or most importantly because Matched Blades now increases your STR instead of lowering your requirements, can't remember if those were WP or STR.

Anyway, Matched Blades is a 64% dmg increase, which combined with SoJ deals tremendous dmg. Yet what makes SoJ first choice isn't its dmg output. It's the availability and potential for crowd control. All other skills that grant a sort of CC, like Sword Typhoon, Whirlwind and Sweeping Strike have cooldowns and rather prolonged ones. That leaves the BM with the skills he can churn out continuously - SoJ.

So if you want to make the BM more versatile and make ppl use other skills you have to make other skills more useable(full). Generally, I don't think the Blademaster should be without Shield skills, like he is now. He is a Templar after all and even starts out with one, yet he has no shield skill.

In my view the game has to define faction pool skills, e.g. skills every class from that faction can use, yet only a specific class can master them. To me shield skills are Templar skills, yet only the Guardian can master them. Sword skills are Templar skills and only the BM can master them. Tier 3 skills from each branch are master and class only skills, like WW, SW, PoR, Stampede. In that respect the unreleased Exemplar class would be the master of buffs, heals and auras.

Sword of Authority is super weak compared to it's cool-down, previously it had 500% increased dmg, now only 200. Skilling it increases EAS instead of reducing cool-down. Sword of Reckoning is useless and will always be useless regardless of how much you nerf SoJ. Mere statistics would make ppl opt for SOJ because three hit can proc conditions more often than a one hit SoR. Ok you could nerf SoJ into oblivion and rendered it completely useless, but then taking it out would make more sense. On a Guard or Exemplar SoR could make more sense, while SoA makes more sense on a BM and Hamper suits an Exemplar ...

Crosscutter is simply a SoR with range. While Sword Master increases the crit dmg of CC and SW. Could be nice on a crit build BM yet cooldown of SW sucks.

As it is now, Surge of Restoration is a must have max skill including Surge Mastery to survive in high to end game combat. It the only heal/sustain skill of the BM.
Might be that my non-HC comrades see that differently, alas they may die. SofRestoration plus Mastery are 15 skill points to spend on, meaning you can go down the SW and the WW path to be effective, especially against foes +5 lvls, not to think of killing Sydonai (lvl62).

And yes you need Charge and Path of Righteousness to get in and out quick plus you need to skill Onslaught to get any meaningful range out of Charge. Another 10 skill points ... and if you want to be quick death on your foes, you can - not a must - skill Surge of Speed granting you +200 movement points when maxed. That's pretty much how you (can) make a life on HC(e ). And thus SoJ is your best option to stack up surges to stay alive and be quick on the battle field while dishing out dmg and conditions quick - shields on lvl 50ish are burnt fast so Sprint is rarely an option as it broken by any kind of hit. And you need to hit and run - that is the game of the BM.

Sure you can play other styles but you will find cool downs a huge hindrance in game flow and kill speed - which you need as you don't have the sustainability of the Guard even with Surge of Restoration max.


... ding ding /end of first round

Bryan

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Re: The BM hate megathread!
« Reply #6 on: Jun 03, 2017; 02:20 AM »
Thanks for the awesome feedback Nemios :D

I generally agree that the design of the class leaves much to be desired, in the sense that some skills are simply unskippable. That creates a "core" skillset that's quite point-intensive, leaving very little room for build diversity.
On to (some of) your points though.

If I recall correctly STR pre TCV4 didn't give as much increase in dmg or it might be because the feeds are off or most importantly because Matched Blades now increases your STR instead of lowering your requirements, can't remember if those were WP or STR.

I don't quite recall the specifics either. I vaguely recall STR giving 3% per point at some point (SP? A mod?), so I suppose 1% is a nerf by comparison :P

Regardless, I don't think 1% leaves room for further nerfs in that front. It's already not a preferable route (gonna touch on that below), so further decreasing the effects of STR would only push players further down the crit-or-bust route. So, for instance,
Matched Blades is a 64% dmg increase
may be a tad deceptive.
To elaborate; Pure STR builds don't outshine crit builds, and STR doesn't really benefit crit builds in the way % ele does, even though it might seem so on paper.  So it really seems to come down to feeds and STR vs ACC, with Matched Blades serving as extra stat points in the mix.

In this scenario, Matched Blades would only be used as a means of covering STR feeds. If +AA and the expertise (+38) still leave 64 STR unaccounted for, then Matched Blades has (at most) provided 64 less points into STR, and into ACC. That, in turn, yields 128% CDB, which is still impressive but probably only 10-30% of one's total CDB.

Of course I still agree it's a damage boost, even more so since it increases STR instead of decreasing feeds.

Yet what makes SoJ first choice isn't its dmg output. It's the availability and potential for crowd control. All other skills that grant a sort of CC, like Sword Typhoon, Whirlwind and Sweeping Strike have cooldowns and rather prolonged ones. That leaves the BM with the skills he can churn out continuously - SoJ.
[...]
As it is now, Surge of Restoration is a must have max skill including Surge Mastery to survive in high to end game combat. It the only heal/sustain skill of the BM.
Might be that my non-HC comrades see that differently, alas they may die. SofRestoration plus Mastery are 15 skill points to spend on, meaning you can go down the SW and the WW path to be effective, especially against foes +5 lvls, not to think of killing Sydonai (lvl62).

I combined your two points here, as they make up a conclusion I absolutely agree with.

SoJ really does shine due to its ability to proc Surges more often. Even if, say, SoR and SoJ are made equal in total damage output, SoJ deals more hits. And since Surges (Restoration, at the very least) are absolutely essential, it becomes the go-to spam skill by default.

I'd like to see some skill makeovers that would at least encourage BMs to pause SoJ. Careful CD reductions alone may come a long way.
For instance, Whirlwind could be revamped to deal more hits than in currently does, making it a match for SoJ in terms of proccing Surges. Being a utility skill would also assist in making it a popular choice, I think.
Sword Typhoon may deserve similar treatment, but I have very little experience with the skill to suggest specific changes beyond a CD reduction.

As far as Surges are concerned, I did come up with some dubious workarounds. But they're dubious indeed.
For instance, a "lifesap" property could be integrated into currently unappealing skills, such as SoR. With proper design, it may allow specific builds to skip that Surge entirely, or at least make it a secondary option.
Additional skill effects that only apply if X(/only X) Surge is active, or if no Surges are active, may also be worth considering.
But again, this is only dubious dreaming on my part, and would take unending testing to properly flesh out, if ever.

In my view the game has to define faction pool skills, e.g. skills every class from that faction can use, yet only a specific class can master them. To me shield skills are Templar skills, yet only the Guardian can master them. Sword skills are Templar skills and only the BM can master them. Tier 3 skills from each branch are master and class only skills, like WW, SW, PoR, Stampede. In that respect the unreleased Exemplar class would be the master of buffs, heals and auras.

This idea greatly appeals to me. I do have my reservations, as it may create more cross-class balancing concerns, and it may well blur the lines between classes if done freely, but I do believe it has merit.

Sword of Authority is super weak compared to it's cool-down, previously it had 500% increased dmg, now only 200. Skilling it increases EAS instead of reducing cool-down.

I do believe that SoA deserves a damage boost and/or a CD reduction.
It seems the skill was intended to reliably inflict elemental effects, but its animation and CD, and the bosses' resistances, render it obsolete.
Very few BMs are concerned with inflicting elemental effects to begin with too ;)
 

I skipped some of your points, mostly due to my inexperience with the class, and even more so in HCE.
Still, this was a pleasure to read. Thanks :)
« Last Edit: Jun 03, 2017; 06:15 AM by Bryan »
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thegreatcthulhu

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Re: The BM hate megathread!
« Reply #7 on: Jun 03, 2017; 06:29 AM »
While it isn't as bad as it used to be with the shield and damage reduction rework in 2.0, I still feel like BM's need to be made fun of for:

A) Being needle junkies
B) Dying at anything that sneezes


Consequentially, I'd say that it may be worthwhile if we could bring in the Parry skill from Global/Resurrection.  I thought it was a good skill for the BM.  The only downside is that it would be inserting yet another 'must have skill'.  And unless we start considering raising the level cap or adding skill points to quest rewards... the vanilla 2.0 BM is end up being spread too thin on skill points IMO.





I don't quite recall the specifics either. I vaguely recall STR giving 3% per point at some point (SP? A mod?), so I suppose 1% is a nerf by comparison :P

Regardless, I don't think 1% leaves room for further nerfs in that front. It's already not a preferable route (gonna touch on that below), so further decreasing the effects of STR would only push players further down the crit-or-bust route. So, for instance,



IIRC, Strength gave 1% pre 2.0 TC. Flagship changed it to 3% in one of the iterations of 2.0 TC.  Revival mimicked that with one of the Revival mods. I don't know though if the 3% for Flagship's was an actual change to the multiplier or if the 3% was the 'gain' from the changes they made to the melee damage bonus calculation.  I hope that makes sense.

I don't think lowering the strength bonus/calculation by 1% would be a good idea just for the sake of balancing the BM.  The Guardian will get screwed over since he doesn't have all the advanced sword skills at his disposal.  Not unless we do something else, like increase the damage bonus or behavior of the Guardian's SOR, boost Anchor's bonus and/or add more effects to the shield skills. But this isn't a Guardian thread, so I'll see my way to the door.

On a side note... I feel like we should have a Guardian thread. Yeah I know the Guardian is pretty OP with the shrapnel Gundian build, but there's still a lot to be left to be desired for regular Guardian game play IMO... even though 2.0 was a shift in the right direction.

Quote from: Bryan
I do believe that SoA deserves a damage boost and/or a CD reduction.
It seems the skill was intended to reliably inflict elemental effects, but its animation and CD, and the bosses' resistances, render it obsolete.
Very few BMs are concerned with inflicting elemental effects to begin with too ;)

SOA was an example IMO of where Flagship should NOT have lowered the skill damage bonus just because "OH WE MADE STRENGTH GIVE MORE DAMAGE, BUT BECAUSE WE'RE TOO CAUTIOUS WE NOW NEED TO LOWER THE DAMAGE BONUSES ON ALL THE TEMPLAR SKILLZ!".

I do recall one of the developers agreeing with some people on the 2.0 TC forums that SOA would get addressed since people were complaining about how crappy the damage was despite it being an end game skill with a cool animation and a long cooldown.

I'd say it needs a damage boost personally.  The elemental bonuses could probably go up too.


Quote from: Bryan
Sword Typhoon may deserve similar treatment, but I have very little experience with the skill to suggest specific changes beyond a CD reduct

Sword Typhoon and all of the other "throwing sword" skills are badly in need of rework.

Crosscutter - just plain sucks. I think Flagship changed its animation for 2.0 so it at least looked somewhat impressive, so they hadn't totally written it off. But it still sucked. The damage output was really low and I feel like the skill left you idle as you had to wait for the animation to finish. The obvious thing to do with it would be to boost the damage, but I think it may also need something else... maybe a critical hit/damage bonus (similar to shield throw) and maybe an animation speed boost. 

Side note: I wish there were more 'effects' in the game besides the obvious elemental novas and "oh lets make it do more critz!".  Flagship really didn't have a chance to develop interesting effects as much as Blizzard has had with Diablo 3: ROS... which by comparison makes Hellgate feel in a lot of ways dated/inadequate (which is just my opinion).

Flying Sword master - While the idea is nice, who the hell is going to spec in throwing swords as their main skill? This skill felt like filler more than anything.  I think the skill's name in the Excel files is "Sword Mastery" or something like that, which makes me believe that MAYBE, originally, Flagship intended it to be a skill that would give a flat damage bonus (or some other type of effect) to ALL sword skills, not just the crappy sword throwing skills.  I think it would be a good idea to maybe move it out of the flying sword tree and put it somewhere else and make it grant a bonus to all BM skills instead of just be specific for the flying crap.  Either that or remove it entirely and consolidate its bonus with Cross Cutter and Sword Typhoon... similar to the trick Hanbitsoft pulled with Provoke and Heavenly Condemnation. 

Sword Typhoon - I really wanted to like this skill. The animation was kind of cool and the idea was attractive.  But its just plain janky in execution.  The sword projectiles spread out too far and miss monsters unless they're tightly grouped around you (so why not just use Sweeping Strike instead), since the swords fly out in a 360% radius, 75% of them won't hit a boss who is standing in front of you (so there goes the 1 on 1 viability, you may as well use SOJ or SOR instead), and the projectiles only hit stuff on the ground, so flying monsters just laugh at you when you use it*.  Also, the damage calculation for each projectile, from what I can tell, is based off of your main hand sword. Nothing else.  So even if you have a really high damage main hand sword (I.E. Gleamcarver, mythic Nodachi, etc), the projectile damage is very underwhelming. And this is an end game skill, at the bottom of the BM's Flying Blade tab.

So what to do about this train wreck.... well for starters, maybe we could change it so that you can use it while jumping and also increase the hit boxes on the sword projectiles.  We should also maybe consider increasing the number of projectiles.  The damage calculation needs to be reworked.  If it doesn't get any bonus from strength, that needs to be changed.  We may also want to consider adding other effects to it (like novas on hit or something else).  Even then, I don't know if all or any of this will still make a difference. Maybe we should just change it so that it's an effect on Sweeping Strike...

*Not 100% sure here, but I believe that Sword Typhoon, like Crosscutter and Heaven's Arc, is still usable when you are shocked.  I'm pretty sure Crosscutter can hit flying monsters but Sword Typhoon, nope. Since it seems like the main monsters this is meant to counter are the lightning spewing orbiles, you have to wonder, what's the point of sword typhoon having this effect if its useless versus anything that flies?


« Last Edit: Jun 03, 2017; 07:13 AM by thegreatcthulhu »
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Malachor

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Re: The BM hate megathread!
« Reply #8 on: Jun 04, 2017; 02:22 AM »

IIRC, Strength gave 1% pre 2.0 TC. Flagship changed it to 3% in one of the iterations of 2.0 TC.  Revival mimicked that with one of the Revival mods. I don't know though if the 3% for Flagship's was an actual change to the multiplier or if the 3% was the 'gain' from the changes they made to the melee damage bonus calculation.  I hope that makes sense.
FSS increased templar weapon damage, not the strength bonus. We increased the strength bonus from 1% to 3% for Revival.

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Re: The BM hate megathread!
« Reply #9 on: Jun 04, 2017; 04:33 AM »

IIRC, Strength gave 1% pre 2.0 TC. Flagship changed it to 3% in one of the iterations of 2.0 TC.  Revival mimicked that with one of the Revival mods. I don't know though if the 3% for Flagship's was an actual change to the multiplier or if the 3% was the 'gain' from the changes they made to the melee damage bonus calculation.  I hope that makes sense.
FSS increased templar weapon damage, not the strength bonus. We increased the strength bonus from 1% to 3% for Revival.

Yeah, they DID increase the damage on swords (in some cases significantly).

Still, I could have sworn they changed the melee damage calculation or the effect that strength had on melee damage skills.
« Last Edit: Jun 04, 2017; 04:39 AM by thegreatcthulhu »
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Bryan

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Re: The BM hate megathread!
« Reply #10 on: Jun 05, 2017; 08:42 AM »
Side note: I wish there were more 'effects' in the game besides the obvious elemental novas and "oh lets make it do more critz!".  Flagship really didn't have a chance to develop interesting effects as much as Blizzard has had with Diablo 3: ROS... which by comparison makes Hellgate feel in a lot of ways dated/inadequate (which is just my opinion).

That bit really gave me pause. It's quite a fair assessment, though I'd add that it's the use of some effects that feels more underwhelming to me, than the actual lack of a multitude of effects (which HG still kind of has, by comparison).

So, I've been thinking. What effects (as in, ones that produce a debuff/effect icon on enemies and/or have visible effect) does HG actually have? Dug a bit to find those, since many were practically never used in a meaningful way.
-Elemental effects (doh)
-Taunt (doh)
-Increased damage received (Beacon - does it count...?)
-Ele defense reduction (Ele Drain - does it count?)
-Fear
-Mind control
-Bleeding (Not only in Global's PoR, but also as a DoT on such items as "The Bleeder")
-"Blind" (White-Out Grenade)
-"Stop" (on such items as Mk Pistols and R. J. Donald's Diplomat)
-Armor/speed reduction (Hamper)
-Speed reduction (Spectral Curse)
-Lifesap (sort of, Brom's)

Probably still missing a few. Didn't include armor penetration as it's more of a mechanic than an effect in that sense.

So, I'm starting to believe it's the use (or lack thereof) of such effects that causes the (end)game to feel stale and so CDB-centric. If dependancies on such effects could be woven into the game, in the form of, say, "X skill deals Y% extra damage if target has Fear", or "Z encounter requires Mind Control/bleeding/etc", we might have a much more interesting experience.
« Last Edit: Jun 06, 2017; 04:16 PM by Bryan »
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Re: The BM hate megathread!
« Reply #11 on: Jun 05, 2017; 05:30 PM »
-"Stop" (on such items as Mk Pistols and R. J. Donald's Diplomat)

i remember there being a high value of "interrupt strength" on cannonades, which to me felt like it was transferred to strikes and thus resulting in the stunlock effect strikes had on base defense waves.
i assumed this was the same as the stop effect, or is it something else?
@RL :)

indczn

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Re: The BM hate megathread!
« Reply #12 on: Jun 05, 2017; 08:02 PM »
<snip>
Sword Typhoon and all of the other "throwing sword" skills are badly in need of rework.

Crosscutter - just plain sucks. I think Flagship changed its animation for 2.0 so it at least looked somewhat impressive, so they hadn't totally written it off. But it still sucked. The damage output was really low and I feel like the skill left you idle as you had to wait for the animation to finish. The obvious thing to do with it would be to boost the damage, but I think it may also need something else... maybe a critical hit/damage bonus (similar to shield throw) and maybe an animation speed boost. 

Side note: I wish there were more 'effects' in the game besides the obvious elemental novas and "oh lets make it do more critz!".  Flagship really didn't have a chance to develop interesting effects as much as Blizzard has had with Diablo 3: ROS... which by comparison makes Hellgate feel in a lot of ways dated/inadequate (which is just my opinion).

Flying Sword master - While the idea is nice, who the hell is going to spec in throwing swords as their main skill? This skill felt like filler more than anything.  I think the skill's name in the Excel files is "Sword Mastery" or something like that, which makes me believe that MAYBE, originally, Flagship intended it to be a skill that would give a flat damage bonus (or some other type of effect) to ALL sword skills, not just the crappy sword throwing skills.  I think it would be a good idea to maybe move it out of the flying sword tree and put it somewhere else and make it grant a bonus to all BM skills instead of just be specific for the flying crap.  Either that or remove it entirely and consolidate its bonus with Cross Cutter and Sword Typhoon... similar to the trick Hanbitsoft pulled with Provoke and Heavenly Condemnation. 

Sword Typhoon - I really wanted to like this skill. The animation was kind of cool and the idea was attractive.  But its just plain janky in execution.  The sword projectiles spread out too far and miss monsters unless they're tightly grouped around you (so why not just use Sweeping Strike instead), since the swords fly out in a 360% radius, 75% of them won't hit a boss who is standing in front of you (so there goes the 1 on 1 viability, you may as well use SOJ or SOR instead), and the projectiles only hit stuff on the ground, so flying monsters just laugh at you when you use it*.  Also, the damage calculation for each projectile, from what I can tell, is based off of your main hand sword. Nothing else.  So even if you have a really high damage main hand sword (I.E. Gleamcarver, mythic Nodachi, etc), the projectile damage is very underwhelming. And this is an end game skill, at the bottom of the BM's Flying Blade tab.

So what to do about this train wreck.... well for starters, maybe we could change it so that you can use it while jumping and also increase the hit boxes on the sword projectiles.  We should also maybe consider increasing the number of projectiles.  The damage calculation needs to be reworked.  If it doesn't get any bonus from strength, that needs to be changed.  We may also want to consider adding other effects to it (like novas on hit or something else).  Even then, I don't know if all or any of this will still make a difference. Maybe we should just change it so that it's an effect on Sweeping Strike...

*Not 100% sure here, but I believe that Sword Typhoon, like Crosscutter and Heaven's Arc, is still usable when you are shocked.  I'm pretty sure Crosscutter can hit flying monsters but Sword Typhoon, nope. Since it seems like the main monsters this is meant to counter are the lightning spewing orbiles, you have to wonder, what's the point of sword typhoon having this effect if its useless versus anything that flies?

I've been leveling HCE with Crosscutter and Sword Typhoon. Currently level 40. First character in the alpha so gear is fairly bad. Entirely solo. I am currently using dual cinderspikes and myrmidian/crap flame column on switch.

Sword Typhoon is not usable while shocked. CC is.

The issues with the blue skills are crowd control, sustainability damage and inability to proc surges.

Crowd control - Due to the cooldowns its far to easy to be overwhelmed by trash mobs. Even with 1 shot 1 kill, I ultimately have to fall back onto a 1point SOJ to deal with that sort of trash as its impossible to hit enough on any given throw. Using a splash weapon helps a little bit, but with a splash weapon, I'm not able to 1shot anything so it's detrimental to use except on switch to deal with crowd control. With the cooldowns on both CC and ST, I've yet to find a combination that wasn't awful for either single target or crowd control, with the latter never being functional.

Sustainability of Damage Carrying on, sustainability of damage just doesn't go with the blue skills. The burst damage (with cinderspikes) is high. Using CC/ST/CC in sequence works very well. After that, it completely falls apart due to the above mentioned cooldowns. The use rate over time is so low that its not good at proccing any effects. I've chosen to go for maximizing burst damage. Crit w/ single target. As long as any single target dies in 1 hit or 1 burst for the highest life stuff, its not a problem.  However, this doesn't work on bosses or things that spawn adds*.
Anything that spawns adds is a pain because the cinderspikes are useless. Having to switch to splash weapons really decreases the kill speed because its no longer 1shot 1 kill, which would be great for those zombie summoners or similar.
For bosses, the damage just can't be sustained because they just have too much life that they can't be "1-shot" in my current situation. After the first burst, the damage output falls off a cliff due to the cooldowns on every skill.

Surges Since the surges can't be proc'd with CC/ST, there is a serious limitation on the entire build. The only healing skill is out. Sure i occasionally get to use them due to falling into SOJ for crowd control, but they are never up when necessary/required. On one hand, its good since the investment into the skills themselves is very large. On the other, the build lacks interesting choices.

ST and CC definitely need some work. They need the actual ability to deal with any sort of crowd. Some possibilities are:
  • Piercing/hit everything in a line
  • Increased splash radius
  • Reduced cooldown
  • Make the skills bindable to either offhand or mainhand weapon.

Both skills only hit few enemies at a time under most circumstances. It's strange to be using ST as the single target, as its clearly designed to be an area of effect skill. To be an effective area of effect skill, nearly everything needs to die, or be severely damaged to be easily cleaned up. This doesn't happen, even when using proper weapons. Monster spacing just doesn't allow for it. Nor is there a way to do the clean up.

I intend to do some more experimenting with an offhand stat-stick gun/sword to see if I can find some improved functionality, but alas, I'm poor still and so acquiring items to test with is a challenge still. I'm still using a 5/10 upgrade cinderspike. Using only the mainhand weapon allows for flexibility with this, but I have yet to put everything together.

I do like the playstyle that the skills allow for, I just wish there was a bit more flexibility to deal with more situations without gimping myself, or falling back to SOJ spam. It plays very nice in Wake hollow/stonehenge where there are open areas with less, but higher life monsters that I can still 1shot. In the main quest line, it gets rough because the density is high and tend to get pinned.

*I could go on for a long time on just how bizarre cinderspikes and throwing skills interact, but the gist of it is... If there is 1 monster in range, the spike will stick in the targeted monster. If theres' 2 monsters, the spike will stick in the non targetted monsters most of the time. If there is a low life add (polyp, etc.) the spike will stick in that, wasting so much damage. Sword typhoon sticks 3 spikes that tend to all end up in the same monster. Hmmm. Hence the burst damage.


Bryan

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Re: The BM hate megathread!
« Reply #13 on: Jun 06, 2017; 10:00 AM »
-"Stop" (on such items as Mk Pistols and R. J. Donald's Diplomat)

i remember there being a high value of "interrupt strength" on cannonades, which to me felt like it was transferred to strikes and thus resulting in the stunlock effect strikes had on base defense waves.
i assumed this was the same as the stop effect, or is it something else?

Nah, "stop" was mostly used in the early stages of the game and went underdeveloped/underused. It's more of a "freeze" than it is a "knockback*10" sort of thing. It even has its own stat, "stop strength". I'll see if I can pull a screenshot :)

Fair point though, interrupt strength was also a thing ^^

@indczn Awesome input, thanks :) An illuminating read indeed.
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Superman

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Re: The BM hate megathread!
« Reply #14 on: Jun 09, 2017; 12:50 AM »
At very end game, they do far less damage than an Evoker. They are a melee dps, they should have more tankability than a ranged dps like an Evoker to balance them out. All DPS classes have the same amount of life, it just depends on how you stat them.

One shouldn't sit there and say their Evoker is glass when they decided to make it a glass cannon. A BM is equally as glass if I make it a glass cannon. Actually it's quite a bit less tanky than an Evoker because I can't kite monsters using SoJ as I am a melee dps.


The only viable attack a Blademaster has is SoJ since every other skill is trash and if anything. Whirlwind and every other skill pretty much bites.

Swords do a truckload of damage, you could have no damage buff on SoJ at max, it wouldn't make a difference.
« Last Edit: Jun 09, 2017; 12:57 AM by Superman »