Author Topic: Alpha mini-guides: Engineer  (Read 1480 times)

Bryan

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Alpha mini-guides: Engineer
« on: Apr 30, 2017; 08:43 AM »
Disclaimer: As 2038 progresses, much of the info in these guides is very likely to, or even bound to, not apply in the future. The purpose of these guides is to highlight how classes differ from their Global/SP counterparts, so as to provide leveling testers with more efficient ways to test later content.

Edit: Added spoiler tags for easier reading. Added screenshots of some unknown/TC-exclusive items mentioned, but the limit of 4 attachments per post may cause some to be misplaced.


What's the Engineer now?

(click to show/hide)


Key differences with Global

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What's still broken.

  • The Drone.
The Drone still doesn't get its proper stats. This can be partly remedied by investing more points in Repair Drone and using it more generously, and by generally keeping a much closer eye at its HP.
« Last Edit: Sep 04, 2017; 04:15 AM by Bryan »
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List of Global class guides.
The above guides may be obsolete for vanilla SP, but they may still hold true to an extent for some mods and 2038.

Bryan

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Re: Alpha mini-guides: Engineer
« Reply #1 on: Apr 30, 2017; 08:43 AM »
Gear

Engineers now have much less use for +stat pieces than they did in Global. That is not to say that they have no use for +stat pieces, but:

  • CCM values are halved.
(click to show/hide)

  • Engineers have fewer skills to spam.
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  • Strikes don't receive the +radius bonuses on the player's weapons.
(click to show/hide)

  • Feeds are generally much more modest.
(click to show/hide)


So, previously secondary properties on gear that may now be of much more use include:

  • Shrapnel.
(click to show/hide)

  • +Movement speed.
(click to show/hide)

  • +minion damage.
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  • +Damage against caste/+damage/increases damage.
(click to show/hide)

  • +Elemental damage and +elemental strength.
(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017; 02:05 AM by Bryan »
"Dream big and crash often"
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List of Global class guides.
The above guides may be obsolete for vanilla SP, but they may still hold true to an extent for some mods and 2038.

Bryan

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Re: Alpha mini-guides: Engineer
« Reply #2 on: Apr 30, 2017; 09:08 AM »
Skills

Given the factors discussed above, here are the rough outlines of two builds that can work sufficiently.

Note, both builds take for granted a +1 to All Skills helmet. This is much easier to augment compared to Global, and it's generally not a rare augment by any means.

Such gear as Gunny's Mistress, Doompulse, and other +skill weapons and rings can also provide room to expand on these builds. They are not accounted for in either build, to ensure gear dependancy is kept at a bare minimum.


Droneless

(click to show/hide)


Drone/Bomber

(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017; 03:58 PM by Bryan »
"Dream big and crash often"
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List of Global class guides.
The above guides may be obsolete for vanilla SP, but they may still hold true to an extent for some mods and 2038.

slicklou

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Re: Alpha mini-guides: Engineer
« Reply #3 on: Apr 30, 2017; 01:04 PM »
I would just like to mention the glitch of getting a new drone that banishes the existing equipped weapon...which means don't get too attached to the lost weapon, but look at another opportunity to re-equip your drone with another weapon as you're constantly leveling up and outpacing everything your stashing... :P

Mechboy Two a.k.a. Slick

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Re: Alpha mini-guides: Engineer
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2017; 05:20 AM »
The issue of strikes and grenades being unable to benefit from radius and crit needs to be added to the "What's still broken" section.

If this is intentional in nature, you might as well remove strikes from the game and replace them with different skills.

Bryan

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Re: Alpha mini-guides: Engineer
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2017; 05:50 AM »
The issue of strikes and grenades being unable to benefit from radius and crit needs to be added to the "What's still broken" section.

If this is intentional in nature, you might as well remove strikes from the game and replace them with different skills.

Strikes are technically not broken per se, as their current state reflects their state during the TCv4 build. Their peformance may be obviously lackluster, but it's not due to some bug or error.

See the patch notes of the Korean 1.5 patch for instance, where Strikes received a 28% damage increase. I'm inclined to believe the additions and modifications Global made to the skills continued that direction and were intended to buff them to more reasonable levels.

Strikes are very likely to receive similar treatment in 2038, as they're very unappealing as they are.
I can't say whether they'll be restored to their Global state, but personally I don't think it's very likely. The game is generally very different than Global, so it would take very careful balancing to ensure massive, critting Strikes fit in. Plus the game's current content and difficulty doesn't require a "crit-or-bust" approach just yet, and I wouldn't like to see that happen with Engineers.
"Dream big and crash often"
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List of Global class guides.
The above guides may be obsolete for vanilla SP, but they may still hold true to an extent for some mods and 2038.

VampQ

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Re: Alpha mini-guides: Engineer
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2017; 05:56 AM »
I don't think it's appropriate to name "broken" whatever we don't like in the game. Some things are just the way they are, they were meant to work in a certain way whether we like it or not. The bonus at crit and radius that grenades and strikes got from weapons were HG:G's addition and not FSS's in TCv4, which we have in our hands.
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Superman

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Re: Alpha mini-guides: Engineer
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2017; 06:25 AM »
The issue of strikes and grenades being unable to benefit from radius and crit needs to be added to the "What's still broken" section.

If this is intentional in nature, you might as well remove strikes from the game and replace them with different skills.

Strikes are technically not broken per se, as their current state reflects their state during the TCv4 build. Their peformance may be obviously lackluster, but it's not due to some bug or error.

See the patch notes of the Korean 1.5 patch for instance, where Strikes received a 28% damage increase. I'm inclined to believe the additions and modifications Global made to the skills continued that direction and were intended to buff them to more reasonable levels.

Strikes are very likely to receive similar treatment in 2038, as they're very unappealing as they are.
I can't say whether they'll be restored to their Global state, but personally I don't think it's very likely. The game is generally very different than Global, so it would take very careful balancing to ensure massive, critting Strikes fit in. Plus the game's current content and difficulty doesn't require a "crit-or-bust" approach just yet, and I wouldn't like to see that happen with Engineers.

Intentions aside, the Engineer completely relies on finding decent shrapnel mods or decent nova mods for it's own or it's drones gun to do much damage at all. Engineer's do not have multi-shot, they do not have rounds nor do they have sniper mode. You are just normal attacking with a weapon and so is your drone without tactical mode. If you don't find those mods, which by the way are pretty rare as they have to actually drop, then it doesn't really matter if the drone is fixed or not. The Engineer will only be useful in parties. That means if your friends are not online, the only thing that would level slower solo is a Tank Guardian. It's only truly useful skill is Haste bot end game until you find decent mods.

I don't think it's appropriate to name "broken" whatever we don't like in the game. Some things are just the way they are, they were meant to work in a certain way whether we like it or not. The bonus at crit and radius that grenades and strikes got from weapons were HG:G's addition and not FSS's in TCv4, which we have in our hands.

If it's not broken, it's an incredibly bad concept by FSS for the sake of class balance. So bad that i thought it was broken.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017; 06:32 AM by Superman »

Bryan

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Re: Alpha mini-guides: Engineer
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2017; 06:58 AM »
I don't disagree that Engineers may likely have a harder time playing solo than other classes, but I believe that falls well within the intention of having them be a minion-based support class. To my eyes this doesn't differ much from a Marksman's solo performance, due to them being a party-dependant glass cannon class.

I'm not against buffing the class, mind you. I'd just rather have it be in the form of Spider Mines or a more formidable Drone than Strikes. The Engineers never had much use for +minion stats, which to me seemed like a deviation from the intended design of the class.

I'm inclined to disagree with this statement, however.
[...] the Engineer completely relies on finding decent shrapnel mods or decent nova mods for it's own or it's drones gun to do much damage at all. [...] If you don't find those mods, which by the way are pretty rare as they have to actually drop, then it doesn't really matter if the drone is fixed or not.

While Novas may be an excellent option, they are by no means the only way to go.
Many testers currently use Exothermic Rifles with +ele mods to great effect, and I've had similar success both with crit/+caste damage weapons and Drone-heavy setups. With decent +minion damage, a Drone can make impressive use of a +damage/+caste damage/+ele Exothermic, Magnum, or a similar high-RoF weapon. The Haste Bot and Bomber Bot also synergize quite well with said weapons if such an approach is taken.


If it's not broken, it's an incredibly bad concept by FSS for the sake of class balance. So bad that i thought it was broken.

While there may be some disagreement on what the role of the class should be, there's a general agreement that Engineers do need a buff (unless Rapid Fire and the Drone drastically change the performance of the class when restored, which seems unlikely).
Objections often arise when the concept of "broken"-ness is brought up, however :P The term is prone to being used very loosely, and often to describe what players dislike, rather than what's actually broken. There have been claims that most Evoker skills are "broken", for instance, because they only grant added elemental strengths and not a damage boost when invested into. While such concerns may often be valid as far as class balance is concerned, it's important to distinguish between unappealing aspects of a class and downright broken skills.

Regardless, class balance will definitely be addressed in the Beta. So fear not, Engineers will shine again :)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017; 07:00 AM by Bryan »
"Dream big and crash often"
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List of Global class guides.
The above guides may be obsolete for vanilla SP, but they may still hold true to an extent for some mods and 2038.

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Re: Alpha mini-guides: Engineer
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2017; 01:33 PM »
@strike balance
i beg to differ.

been playing striker since 2007 here, and still am.

strikes were so op at global, it wasnt even funny. it was literally like apocalypse spam in diablo hellfire - half your map would just drop from a cannonade strike. win-buttons everywhere, especially with the discory of phase grenade crits on top. just have a look at danker's videos, basically 1- (or rather 2-) hitting moloch and berial.



as for hg:l and 2038 - i think they're still a bit overpowered actually. radius is just fine at maxed out strikes, you actually have to aim a bit where to throw the beacon, and not just shoot and forget.

it's a funny gearing situation - nothing seems to work from weapons except +combat skill dmg, while shield pene and increased dmg from armor are working. also, a ring with added fire dmg works, since my smackdown occasionally ignites mobs. so there ya go. couple that with the base cooldown of strikes at 30sec and you can have a strike field up almost constantly, with your hastebot and a bit of increased userate.

my current build is like my build in 2007: strikes, hastebot, beacon, escape all maxed, sprint maxed (personal preference) 3-1 rocket bot into molotow. TC vendor has nice items featuring 20% shield pene on top of 15% increased dmg. +1 to engi skills helmet. for tough single targets, i currently sport a lee's lightlance, but i'm sure there's better options there. while smackdown reliably stunlocks mobs, i use escape for tight situations during napalm strikes. just notice that using a health injector or any skill will cancel your escape. this used to be different in 2007, where you could spam molotows while being invisible.


so. having said all that, i'm currently lvl45, sitting at 100% shield pene and well over 70% increased dmg from armor. i hear that catas will be particularly challenging, but that's kind of a fake argument for me, since the mob level is so much higher than our level cap at 50. for comparison, i'm questing at liverpool station currently with mobs 9lvls higher. while that is far from cakewalk for my character, i can prevail with proper gameplay. frankly, it should not be a cakewalk vs mobs so much higher. as for strikes being lackluster, i think that's a warped perspective thing, since we've all seen and still remember the global days of lolgineers.
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Bryan

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Re: Alpha mini-guides: Engineer
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2017; 08:05 PM »
Holy smokes @ the video... I've seen OP but that's insane.

as for strikes being lackluster, i think that's a warped perspective thing, since we've all seen and still remember the global days of lolgineers.

Hm, very true. Guilty as charged :)
One could argue that Strikes underperform compared to the expectations of skills with such animations and cooldowns, but our expectations probably have Global residue within.
"Dream big and crash often"
-Omerta

List of Global class guides.
The above guides may be obsolete for vanilla SP, but they may still hold true to an extent for some mods and 2038.

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Re: Alpha mini-guides: Engineer
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2017; 08:35 PM »
yea, that was the situation with very good gear towards the end of what i call the "legit era" ;)

little update: lvl45,46 ... vs lvl51 deepest wilds, yea, lackluster. my two bm buddies did all the killing. i basically just scouted... and was haste/beacon bitch. so, compared to bm, yea, lackluster. but then again, anything except gun shrupnel guard is currently. right?
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Bryan

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Re: Alpha mini-guides: Engineer
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2017; 09:25 PM »
Mostly, but not exclusively. Shrapnel is king but there's a few approaches that impress or hold their own.
High ele, particularly combined with high level SoJ/SoR, high +minion damage Warper and Drones, there's a few ways to go.

But those would require more guides to properly list ;)
« Last Edit: May 03, 2017; 11:40 PM by Bryan »
"Dream big and crash often"
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List of Global class guides.
The above guides may be obsolete for vanilla SP, but they may still hold true to an extent for some mods and 2038.

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Re: Alpha mini-guides: Engineer
« Reply #13 on: Jun 06, 2017; 09:00 AM »
so. final note on engineers, somewhat late, for last alpha cycle:

i liked it!
finished the st. paul's quests and even killed sydonai solo (i died a lot tho, and finally didn't get the quest update because he apparently died in a strike when i warped back to the station upon death #3494859 or so). still, this was a first to me, to beat the game in elite nm mode. strikes were sufficient AoE to beat mobs around st pauls, and thanks to my awesome guildies i had 2 hus to dispatch tougher enemies. escape duration (max espace) saved me so many times.

so ya, i think balance is nice for engi. ofc it all depends on how other classes perform and what is intended for the class(es) - equal dps across the board, at least for the "cookie cutter" build, or forcing people to accept certain roles (tank, support)
@RL :)