Author Topic: A question about Crits  (Read 4693 times)

megatyrant

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A question about Crits
« on: Oct 17, 2011; 06:05 PM »
Does anyone happen to know how your final critical chance is calculated.  From observations on my MM and a discussion in-game with another player the calculations for critical chance does not seem to be

SUM(Critical Chance)*(100%+SUM(CCM))

Wolfilein

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Re: A question about Crits
« Reply #1 on: Oct 18, 2011; 04:47 AM »
Could you be more detailed ??
You are assuming that ccm-race is applied before the normqal ccm (from gear an pet) is applied?
Or what exactly is you point ?
Wolfilein

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megatyrant

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Re: A question about Crits
« Reply #2 on: Oct 18, 2011; 05:14 AM »
I was simply wondering how it's calculated.  I know that it starts with the crit from armors, weapons and mods and that the pet bonus is calculated last but what about crit from achievements, skills and inherent class crit.  How is CCM and CCM (caste) factored in.  What order is it all calculated out in. 

What makes me wonder is that I had a Hell Molly solo time of 15 minutes.  When I replaced my 2% CCB/+4% dmg techs with a 3rd 50%CCM (deamon) my kill time suddenly dropped to under 5 minutes. Is an extra 14% really enough to cut my kill-time by 2/ 3?

Harrowing

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Re: A question about Crits
« Reply #3 on: Oct 18, 2011; 06:38 AM »
Yes, because specifically speaking once your critical rate is high enough your damage is no longer normal.  You bypass most armor (excluding some specific bosses Like Dessicator).  If you get enough critical damage and ccm togehter you should be able to 1 shot moloch with him having beacon on.  There are numerous hellgate video's from Korea that both show a MM beaconing Moloch, applying multishot, then firing once.  Moloch is left with 4~5% hp and before can summon the healers he dies from ignite status.

There are also a ton of vids of numerous Evoker's all using different skills to one shot moloch from a critical hit.  At a certain point once maximum critical chance is achieved the only stats to work towards are Accuracy and critical damage bonus(specific to class if running with multiple gear sets).


As to how its determined, no clue.
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Yandor

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Re: A question about Crits
« Reply #4 on: Nov 03, 2011; 12:13 PM »
A damage formula has been published on the forums and on Game banshee and the author attempts to compare the benefits of a +10% damage mod versus a +50% cd mod with similar feed costs for a hi crit build but stuffs up the maths and wrongly concludes the +damage mod is better.

I will try to correct his error while using numbers similar to his example.
CC is capped at 95% but for simplicity here it is treated as being 100%.
CD is 1200%.

The damage formula he uses is-
Base Damage * Rate of Fire * (1 + Elemental Damage) * [1 + Damage Multiplier + Critical Chance*Critical Damage Bonus] * (1 + Rate of Fire Bonus)

For this comparison only the factor  [1 + Damage Multiplier + Critical Chance*Critical Damage Bonus]  needs to be considered and this reduces to
1 + damage multiplier + 1 * cd = 1 + damage multiplier + 12
If you add a +10% damage mod this becomes 1.1 + 12 = 13.1
If you add a +50% cd mod instead this becomes 1 + 12.5 = 13.5
The +cd mod is far better but note that the increases are less than 1% and 5% respectively.
Roughly 90% of the damage is coming from crits in either case.

Note that this comparison has ignored + elemental damage mods, that is another story.

Another example, a level 50/Rank ? engi who is starting to get some base cc = 10% and has 150 accuracy points giving 300% cd.
The factor is now 1 + damage increase + 0.1 * 3 = 1 + damage increase + 0.3.
Now a +10% damage mod gives 1.1 + 0.3 = 1.4
While a +50% cd mod gives 1 + 0.35 = 1.35 (crits are not yet better)
This is close to the point where the damage added from crits will start to outweigh damage that can be added by + damage mods, assuming efforts are made to supplement base character crits with weapon, armor and mod crits.

Its the number cc * cd that matters, get this over 1 and crits start dominating the damage output.
Example cc = 20% and cd = 500% gives 0.2 * 5 = 1.
At this point crits are doing half of all damage, doubling the damage if you like.
Yes, we like :)
« Last Edit: Nov 03, 2011; 12:55 PM by Yandor »

Kunzer

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Re: A question about Crits
« Reply #5 on: Nov 10, 2011; 12:25 PM »

Note that this comparison has ignored + elemental damage mods, that is another story.


Is there any chance you could expand upon this?

If at all possible, I would appreciate a mathematical example for better understanding.


If that is too much trouble, I understand completely. However, I would really appreciate a basic explanation of how elemental damage affects overall damage dealt.

For reference purposes, I would like to state that I am a Crit Marksman

The reason I am inquiring about elemental damage effects is because I have been slowly adding weapon mods to my z-83 gatling while gaining ranks.

To be more specific, all of the Fuel/Ammo mods I use are +x% Elemental damage / +~50% CCM.

If you have opinions/knowledge regarding CCM/%ele dmg mods, please feel free to share.

Lastly, thank you very much for making your post. I found it to be very helpful and informative.
Kunzer - Crit Marksman - Level 50 Rank 45 (HG:G)

Yandor

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Re: A question about Crits
« Reply #6 on: Nov 10, 2011; 07:24 PM »
Adding +10% elemental damage mod would give a 10% increase versus the 1% and 5% increases gained in the example above. The % increase comes through unchanged.

A spreadsheet might be used to compare alternative combinations of mods or even two different weapons full of mods. Something like the skill planner that does the math might also be possible.

The wiki shows the elemental defences of the bosses so you might aim at having weapons kitted out for particular damage types for particular bosses, perhaps with cd caste considered too.

But your options are limited by feed costs.
The exercise of calculating how best to use your attribute points is best attempted when you are looking at reassigning points for boss farming at high level. In my case that might mean reducing my Will points in order to have more Acc points (+2% damage per point) which would mean no longer using proc effect mods.

The equation really needs to be expanded to include the effect of your acc points.
Eventually you need to be plugging in actual numbers from your weapon, mods and char in there.

The new set armor pieces have some armor bypass on them too, which adds another complicaction, you would need to know your enemies health and armor to estimate how much benefit you get from armor penetration.
« Last Edit: Nov 10, 2011; 07:34 PM by Yandor »

Kunzer

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Re: A question about Crits
« Reply #7 on: Nov 11, 2011; 12:41 AM »
Thank you very much for the information.

I think we're on the same page; thus far it would appear the information I have received from other high level marksmen mirror what you are saying precisely.

Interestingly enough, just two days ago I redirected about 50 Will points into my Accuracy.. ^^

I'm currently at Level 50 Rank 34. I have been putting all of my attribute points directly into accuracy because I already assumed that my damage was dominated by critical hits.

well, that and all of the end-game/set gear for my class requires accuracy feed like crazy


However, it is awesome to receive some additional mathematical validation on my character build!

Again, thank you. I appreciate the information and will be putting it to good use.
Kunzer - Crit Marksman - Level 50 Rank 45 (HG:G)

Butsutekkai

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Re: A question about Crits
« Reply #8 on: Nov 11, 2011; 10:25 AM »
Hey Kunzer ! welcome here ! (Hogire inside :) ). As far as i ve seen you pretty lucky on augs for your set so you ll have enough accu for all your mods.

See you later for more level grind together i hope !
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Kunzer

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Re: A question about Crits
« Reply #9 on: Nov 11, 2011; 08:46 PM »
Hey Kunzer ! welcome here ! (Hogire inside :) ). As far as i ve seen you pretty lucky on augs for your set so you ll have enough accu for all your mods.

See you later for more level grind together i hope !

Hey man :) yeah I've been doing pretty well with my accuracy feed so far, with good luck.

I can't believe it took me this long to make an account here, I've been reading the site since early 2011.

Hope your hellrush is going well :)
Kunzer - Crit Marksman - Level 50 Rank 45 (HG:G)

Alternalo

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Re: A question about Crits
« Reply #10 on: Nov 13, 2011; 07:11 PM »
Hi, i've read in the evoker thread that they summerize cc for spells like flameshards, hellfire, etc. Could this be happened with mm-s Ravager Rounds too, cuz it automatically fires both weapons?
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Butsutekkai

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Re: A question about Crits
« Reply #11 on: Nov 13, 2011; 11:38 PM »
Hi, i've read in the evoker thread that they summerize cc for spells like flameshards, hellfire, etc. Could this be happened with mm-s Ravager Rounds too, cuz it automatically fires both weapons?

Mhhh interesting. I don t know if it can be easily tested but i don  think rounds act as a spell. I know crits are aditive for engi strikes but no idea for rounds.
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Wolfilein

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Re: A question about Crits
« Reply #12 on: Nov 14, 2011; 04:49 PM »
For rounds ?? NO !!
There is no such mechanic involved with rounds. They just work like the "fire with both wepons" attack-skill with addtitional chance to proc round effects.  No damage caculation like evo spells.

HELL... i wont even need ccm mods if that where true ;)
Wolfilein

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sydewayz

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Re: A question about Crits
« Reply #13 on: Dec 18, 2011; 06:34 PM »
one more random question where .... lets say we are talking about an engi drone..... where does the minion dmg bonus fit in to the formula?
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