Author Topic: Summoner Help Request  (Read 4225 times)

Yorthae

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Summoner Help Request
« on: Feb 16, 2014; 05:31 AM »
Greetings all,

I have enjoyed HGL for a few years now, with the added replay value of this site's mods and insight. Thank you for that.

I have now decided to play around some on Global and believe I have hit a point where I need to reset my skills and attributes. I just hit 50 (my only toon over 10) so I dont have a lot of palladium yet, but am now trying to liquidate some stuff in my storage.

The problems I believe I have are mostly based around not having a clear plan while levelling so my skills are kind of all over the place (somewhat intentionally, as I wanted to try a few styles). From what I've read, I belive I need to work on expertise at 50, vice 55, so the levels will be smaller. I still have enough T Coins left over from way back when to purchase the skill initialization and will probably have enough palladium to get an attribute one before long. I was putting points in STR to get into gear reforges and augments without thinking too far ahead.

I have enjoyed all the play-styles I have tried, and the only one I haven't attempted is the Poison Summoner (mostly because of points already spent in other trees). I am currently running around with a ZF cast set and ZF melee set of weapons with max sacrifice, maxed WD healing, 4 force elementals and a few of the other elementals for dps/support. Since I have only been running normal and nightmare stuff solo, I haven't had any problems on most stuff. Killed Occulis, can farm heads Ash, Errgoth, etc.  I have not been able to kill Dessicator (even on normal) or finish Devil Trap near Parliament Square for my storyline stuff yet.

Sorry for the wall of text, but that leads me to these questions now that I am lvl 50:

1. Are any of the Summoner builds capable of solo farming all the set pieces in Hell?

2. Which build do you think is the most friendly to an older video card?

3. How many non-directly beneficial attribute (str, acc) points are 'too many' to have invested?

4. If I don't end up doing a lot of group stuff do the above questions even matter?


Just really hoping to have a better plan and avoid another round of respecs and any/all advice would be greatly appreciated. I should also mention I have the extra +10 skill points if that changes anything for options and about 21k T Coins.

Thanks in advance,

Yorthae (in-game name)


*late addition* I have read all the Summoner threads in the Class Build Sticky, just seeking a bit more clarification.






« Last Edit: Feb 16, 2014; 05:41 AM by Yorthae »
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PeeterMcG

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Re: Summoner Help Request
« Reply #1 on: Feb 16, 2014; 09:03 PM »
Wanted to take a moment and let you know that your questions aren't being ignored.

My experience and experimentation with the summoner was limited to "support role for Dessicator parties."  That is I would keep several force elementals and the warper out.  Summon Reaper (during warper cooldown).  Watch everyone else kill the mummies and Dessi.  Consequently, my ability to definitively answer your questions is non-existent.

I hope someone with more summy experience comes along shortly and can answer your questions for ya.
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Bryan

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Re: Summoner Help Request
« Reply #2 on: Feb 16, 2014; 09:35 PM »
Hey there :)

To start with,I'd strongly suggest that you don't buy a reskill with Tcoin.
If you can hold out till lv55 you get one for free.Conversely,you could buy one off the MP for palladium and save your Tcoin for accessories/preservatives/costumes.Which I find to be of much use later on.

Now,
1. Any build that can provide enough survivability along with sufficient minion-based damage to eventually bring a boss down should suffice.On specifics,I'd say that a dedicated ZF build such as yours should be able to do it at lv55,along with minor minion stats and a few more Elementals.
A reason for the huge boost at lv55,apart from the lower level difference with bosses (thus more damage dealt and less received) is that you can equip Valleys,that can provide a very visible boost to your hp along with minion stats.

2. I'd say a toxic tree-based one,and/or any setup that doesn't rely on many Elementals.In the case of ZF,I suppose one can hit a decent damage threshold just by focusing on Sacrifice,and then on Force (as tankers)/Toxic/Fire Elementals,along with +minion damage on gear.

Generally,anything that can restrict one's team to 20-30 Elementals shouldn't cause many problems.I wouldn't suggest using the Warper for extra damage,unless you're willing to go for something along those lines:
-10 Forces to tank,and possibly 10 Toxics and/or Fires to deal damage
-A max Warper,along with a maxed Spellstorm command and +minion stats
-Since +minion damage is in play,a Reaper wouldn't be worthless either
-Personal means of HP recovery,such as Brom's/Drain Life,along with less personal tanking

Though that sounds quite far from what you had in mind,it might be an approach to consider.Since you're
experimenting too.

3. To a perfectionist,even 1 wasted point is a wasted point.In more casual terms,I'd say you can afford to have ~20 points in a stat such as ACC or STR,but any more becomes cumbersome.Even 20 points equate to 40 power/power regen if invested in WILL,or 100 HP before % hp bonuses if invested in STA.

Restats aren't too expensive though,fortunately.And the moment you have a setup that can hold its own against Moloch,you can pretty much take your time and farm him till you get both the Retrainers you need,or the money to buy them.

4. I'd say that yes,as focusing on solo or group play drastically changes your aims.
As a solo player,essentially you just need enough defense to survive a boss,and just enough damage to eventually bring it down.As a group player,you need to focus on one role and allow your teammate(s) to fill up the others.For instance,ZFs can abandon all damage-dealing in favor of better tanking (even as far as focusing on Carnagor) if they're dedicated group players,but that approach would really not suit solo play.
Conversely,a solo build may function fine for solo,but a party may expect/need more of either tanking or damage-dealing.


On that note,if you happen to need teammates for leveling or farming Moloch,VampQ and I should be available at times.In-game I can be reached on Bryan,Vraedna or Delemorte,and VampQ is most often on RagasoLady or Integra_Hellsing.
Though personally I don't play as often anymore due to a tighter schedule,so you may need to drop me a line here first.

That's all that comes to mind,hope it's been of some help :)
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The above guides may be obsolete for vanilla SP, but they may still hold true to an extent for some mods and 2038.

Yorthae

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Re: Summoner Help Request
« Reply #3 on: Feb 17, 2014; 05:30 AM »

Thank you for the quick and informative responses.

I think I will level on to 55 before working on expertise, as I think you were saying, to do my reskill. Unless you were suggesting I rank first as well. My playtime is pretty hit or miss so that could take a while.

If nothing else, it will provide me some more time to make my decisions. I did not realize there was such a huge jump in stats/dmg with the 'Valleys' and hitting 55.

I will admit to being spoiled by having the Witchdoctor skilled up so high and being a bit hesitant to move to the Warper. But, that being said, am also really tempted and curious about the Toxic builds you have described in your guide, with either the boss farmer with a WD or the grinder + warper.

The other thing I had meant to include in my original post was the different builds vs gear dependancy. I think I will be replacing most of my gear regardless, but am curious to how big of a handicap I will be working with until I can get more pieces in place. Hopefully by the time I hit 55 I will have some drops that will be beneficial.

Normally when I am working on exp, I either go to the catacombs and just start working my way down, or clear an area in Stonehenge to farm a boss head, etc. so I normally see a lot of random drops. Probably not the most efficient, but for me personally, it seems more exciting than clearing room/reset/rinse/lather/repeat. I might change my mind after I have to start grinding expertise.

Again, a huge thank you to anyone who responds or who has already responded for this help request (Bryan, PeeterMcG, etc). You guys rock.
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Bryan

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Re: Summoner Help Request
« Reply #4 on: Feb 17, 2014; 03:17 PM »
Happy to be of assistance :)

Your best bet would be to rank while you're lv50,and only go for lv55 when you're done with your goal rank or r50.Reason being,mostly,that Stonehenge mobs only scale up to lv50 themselves,so the 1st room process is severely hampered.This may seem uninteresting and so forth (which it is,sure),but it's a useful means of reaching the endgame boss farm-fest that many players would rather have.
Of course it's up to you.I've also seen players who deliberately leveled to 55 in their r30s,to leave some ranks for solo Catacombs and so forth.

The jump from lv50 to 55 isn't so much a stat one,as it is plain level difference.Valleys do provide visible boosts for any tanker/minion-based Summoner in themselves,but the real benefit is in the player reaching a boss's level.Moloch,for instance,will scale to a player's level +5,but only up to 55 himself.A player who is also 55 doesn't suffer from decreased Damage Absorption,and any/all such factors that a level difference includes.

Any build that focuses on the Toxic tree is highly gear-dependent,if you're considering that route.Even if stat pieces negate the need for set pieces,you'll have to get together some very specific foci,and them being Mythics means you won't flesh it out properly till lv55.
If you do go for it though,I'd actually suggest keeping the Doctor.He and 10 Forces pretty much tank anything that comes their way,leaving all the room in the world for personal damage.Using the Warper works fine for a grinder,but for boss farming I'd be skeptical about keeping it over a Doctor.

Due to its higher innate defense,a ZF build might have more use for a Warper,especially if combined with commands (ie Spellstrike)/+minion stats and if the goal is to only keep the essential Elementals to lessen the strain on your video card.

Lastly,on the matter of gear dependency.I'd argue that most setups are sadly very dependent on gear,in some cases even more so.In the case of a solo-oriented ZF though,it's noteworthy that you can safely skip the entire set and not miss out on much apart from the "+1 to all skills",which is easily replaced by a helmet with the property and/or a cast set such as Masters of the Dark.

As a point of reference.I have been testing out a tanker ZF build myself,he's currently 50/11.Using only a set helm with % hpb,miniset shoulders and all the rest % hpb legendaries,I'm now standing at 6k HP and my Drain Life drains 950 per enemy/second.As for skillpoints,a plain ZF cast set and +10 points from Murmur seem to suffice,though such builds can afford the extra WILL on a +1 helm if bad comes to worse.WILL equals a deeper power pool,after all.
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Yorthae

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Re: Summoner Help Request
« Reply #5 on: Feb 21, 2014; 05:12 PM »
I finally got back in-game and knocked out my first rank (have had some medical issues stealing my game-time). Thanks again. I'm currently planning on your boss farmer poison summoner type build with the doctor when I finish grabbing ranks, etc.

Hopefully I run into some of you. Happy hunting!
« Last Edit: Feb 26, 2014; 09:05 PM by Yorthae »
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Yorthae

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Re: Summoner Help Request
« Reply #6 on: Feb 26, 2014; 04:15 PM »

So the points in the Cruelty Expertise (damage +x%) are not really worth it, even on the boss farmer with the WD and force elementals? Is this based on the "crit is king" for endgame? Just curious.



*admission of noobness for your amusement*

I did not realize you also got attribute points for expertise ranks.
« Last Edit: Feb 26, 2014; 04:24 PM by Yorthae »
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Bryan

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Re: Summoner Help Request
« Reply #7 on: Feb 26, 2014; 11:26 PM »
Well for the most part,yes.
In the case that one gets 10 Fires/Toxics it's not entirely wasted,but I'd still believe other expertises may be of more help (ie Affliction etc).I believe in such a setup the Elementals' role is first to provide extra targets and sustain aggro,then to possibly help with the alleged "armor break" theory thing through their constant attacks,as weak as they might be.I don't value them as a dependable/respectable source of damage,so as to make their +attack a priority over any amount of cdb.

On that note.I'd only consider them a considerable damage aid if there were 20 of them,and if they'd somehow get themselves a 300-400% attack boost,with little/no stat feed cost.Sadly,the cost-free 100% from Cruelty and 105% from the Revenge skill didn't seem to boost my 10 Toxics to any noteworthy level,which is where I based my view and numbers.Plus,
-maxing Revenge is an added 7 skillpoints off of the main setup.
-getting 10 extra Elementals to possibly make a diffference with +205% is another 10 skillpoints,plus a lower available power pool which can interfere with spamming spells.
-getting +minion stat gear can cost tremendously to personal damage.Lucky pieces may be found on occasion (ie only +stats/AA and lower +minion stats for very low feeds),but even a feed of 15 costs 30 cdb.Set gloves and boots already cost enough for the +crit they provide,so a simple 50 extra feed on multiple,low +minion stat gear is another 100% cdb lost.

I'd really hope some sort of costless compromise can be found that would make the Elementals more usable and useful.Some experimentation might still yield some results in that area,hopefully.
To play the old hipster,I even tried the Thunderclash mythics on my otherwise crit-based summoner.Oddly enough,they seemed to work fine without being the perfect critcapped,ele-ccm-base crit pieces they could be.Perhaps there's something to that...?

Also.We have all been new at some point or another,on one matter or another.No amusement to be had at anyone's expense there :)
« Last Edit: Feb 27, 2014; 02:07 AM by Bryan »
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Yorthae

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Re: Summoner Help Request
« Reply #8 on: Feb 28, 2014; 10:31 PM »

Ah. No worries. I learned to laugh at myself long ago. Life's too short.

I'm pretty horrible about making up my mind and being an 'alt-a-holic', but after some thought, I have elected to go with a more traditional elemental-type build on Yorthae which I am more familiar with.

I am just starting a new summoner (Mizzrymm) to try the levelling process with your poison setup. I figure it will be something new and will give me more of a chance to adjust and experiment with the nuances of a new setup. I actually enjoy the levelling process and storyline the most in games that can support it, so that will be fun I think (for the record, I still like the HGL version better with crazy Lucious / Techsmith interplay).

Did you have a favorite weapon type during the early levels? I seem to remember some unique plaguecaster that had 3 toxic elementals pretty early, probably before I could have much in the poison tree.
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Bryan

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Re: Summoner Help Request
« Reply #9 on: Feb 28, 2014; 11:50 PM »
I do miss the Aldin/314 interactions myself.Much more memorable than all the new,serious conspiracy thing...Trying to masquerade a "magnificent chair" quest as serious seems laughable,at best.

I did have some preferred weapons,yes.Though it was mostly foci,for the obvious reasons :P
For the extra Toxics I'd use Glenn's,the one you refer to (though it's 2-handed,sadly).As for gun types,early on I generally preferred the 2-hand Tempest Rifles for the spread,and either Dart Guns (the Vampire variant returns hp on each hit) or any 1-hand along with a Hive Crystal for some AoE damage.
Guns such as Bane of Abaddon seemed to work well due to their high RoF too,but I can't recall what their type is called.Those guns would actually last me longer than most other guns,when I'd use guns entirely.

For casting summoners I'd often use,either in level order or simultaneously:
-Existential Cores for the +AA.
-Abyssal Cores for +toxic damage and +poison strength.Not as useful as others,but they seem to fit the theme.
-Bottomless Prisms for +power for more Forces.
Then at lv50,any Dreary Hands (for the looks  :P) that have +crit/ccm,and possibly any useful skills.Though that can come at a hefty feed price...

Lords of the Night are useful alt runner weapons for any setup,even more so if you can augment Blink on them.
In a similar manner,Masters of the Dark can be very useful for minion-based summoners.They provide a total of +2 to all skills,and minion stats.On the down side,they ensure the player cannot deal damage or cast spells such as Drain Life.You'll even need to use a set with focus items to enter ZF and then switch to them,if memory serves me correctly.

On that note,you could also try to use 1 foci and a gun,if you're going for guns.The foci would allow you to use a spell or two,if the semi-hybrid idea appeals to you.
My very first summoner was more minion-based with minimum spell usage.She used a Vampire dart pistol for returned hp along with a foci to spam a lv5 Venomous Spirit.Reason being,apart from saving points,that it would throw 3 projectiles,1 of which would alway hit in the center.Though now I'd take a lv7 for the added damage any day.
Supplementary spells were Afterlife and Brom's Curse (both ~2/7),both for survivability.Drain Life was also useful when a foci provided it,but I never spent points in it to keep my skills in check.
« Last Edit: Feb 28, 2014; 11:56 PM by Bryan »
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Yorthae

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Re: Summoner Help Request
« Reply #10 on: Mar 01, 2014; 04:23 AM »

Oh yeah, love the existential cores. i still have a +7 one on Yorthae I use from time to time.

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Yorthae

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Re: Summoner Help Request
« Reply #11 on: Mar 05, 2014; 01:21 AM »
Looking at doing something like this now:

http://www.hellgateaus.info/planner/#Summoner,50,50,10,v1.0000181418551300111600001222300000000


Not really sure what I want to do with the spare 10 points. Was thinking some combination involving:

Elemental nova, blood link, force elementals, Reaper, Summoning Circle and/or Empowerment to beef up the WD, point in Zombie Form for survivability,

Having a tough time with it. Any suggestions/advice (this is also the only character I am likely to have the extra 10 points in for skills)?

Was thinking of also using the 2 Masters of the dark, but am now thinking that might be problematic if I cant cast Broms or Elemental Nova etc. I will have to look into which spells ypu cant use (if any).
« Last Edit: Mar 05, 2014; 01:26 AM by Yorthae »
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Manu

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Re: Summoner Help Request
« Reply #12 on: Mar 05, 2014; 07:20 PM »
@Yorthae

I will recommend a few more points on Empowerment. One point on blink for escaping.
A point in ZF is good specially if you want to carry 2 focus items. The reaper comes handy
in tough situations but you can precast. Elemental Nova is nice so I would put a few more as well.

Force elementals are good tanks and I would get a few more.

You should be able to cast Broms or Elemental Nova with 2 masters of the dark.

Bryan

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Re: Summoner Help Request
« Reply #13 on: Mar 05, 2014; 11:54 PM »
I do agree on boosting Empowerment,and would suggest 2 points in Blink if you get it,for the very reduced cooldown compared to 1 point.

If you go for ZF for survivability,I'd suggest using points and a cast set to max it.You'll need to switch to foci to use it since Masters don't allow it,so you might as well get the extra points that way.

If you're going to use Nova often,I'd suggest maxing it for a very reduced cooldown.

I'd suggest a few more Forces as well,I personally always max them.Conversely,I'd never use Storms unless you plan to solo a lot and feel you'll have trouble with flying mobs.
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List of Global class guides.
The above guides may be obsolete for vanilla SP, but they may still hold true to an extent for some mods and 2038.